Calvinists “meet me at camera two”
Typical of my experience of Calvinism in academic settings.
“Reformed Christians are not restorationists. That is, they do not believe that the Reformation was a break from catholic Christianity, or that the church had ceased to exist until the Reformers came along… Unlike myriad sects, we do not regard our congregations or denominations as the only true church, but as part of the catholic church across all times and places.” – Michael Horton, For Calvinism
Typical of my experience of Calvinism on the Internet. [In response to a question asking people to name their favorite theologian from the other side of the Calvinist/Arminian divide]
“I have no favorite Arminian theologian-Why do you expect orthodox Calvinists to have a favorite heretic?”
“I am Calvinistic and don’t really know many Arminian Theologians. Those that I know of, I dislike greatly”
In the word’s of Jon Stewart- Calvinists, “meet me at camera two.”
Do you see the problem here? People are getting mixed signals.
Do you like us? Do you think we’re godforsaken heretics?
We don’t know, and that makes it hard to talk to you.
Yes, some of the stereotyping of Calvinists is unfair and unhelpful. But you know we’re not just making this stuff up, right?
So please, figure out where you stand and teach that consistently, so that when we come across the average Calvinist online we can have some idea whether we are going to be welcomed as a brother/sister in Christ or condemned as a heretic.
Sincerely,
People who aren’t Calvinists [Or as you call pretty much all of us, Arminians]
It’s always true that the moderates are not the loudest voices. I’d say I’m a Calvinist (I think… tough to completely settle on the issue) but how much do you hear me ranting?
Kacie
I’m not settled on it either (which is why I’d say not Calvinist rather than grabbing the Arminian label), and I know not all Calvinists are that way, certainly wasn’t pointing the finger at you or my other quite reasonable Calvinist friends.
There is something about that theological stream though that too often lends itself to this confrontational all-or-nothing stance, and its exactly those who aren’t moderates who I’m satirizing here.
I love it when he goes to the other camera. This is one of my favorites (sorry, you made me think of it): http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-january-25-2007/cheney-camera-3
Don’t forget the confusion that is brought to the table from Reformed apologetic ministries. Which seem to focus the majority of their argumentation against Arminianism.
I just cannot – CANNOT – get over the heretics comment. I was so sure you were making that up. Wow.
For whatever it’s worth, I am pretty fiercely Arminian (although, maybe in a 4 pointed way; I don’t believe salvation can be lost), and I can think of plenty of people who are part of the Reformed tradition whom I admire and respect. Tim Keller would be at the top of that list for me.
The difference between academic discussion and internet discussion … well, clearly. Lots gets lost in the translation, doesn’t it? Not just about theology, either.
Agreed, there are plenty of Calvinists I admire as well – and yes, Keller is definetly on that list.
And for the record, I had a hard time believing that comment too when I first saw it.
I’m definitely a “Calvinist” (though I hate such titles–I am just truly convinced that “Calvinism” is biblical, taught by all the prophets, Jesus Himself, and His apostles). I don’t think that all those who embrace an Arminian understanding are, necessarily, heretics. What is evident, however, is that when God’s authority, sovereignty, and grace are made secondary, heresy is easier to reach.
From what I have read of John Wesley, although I think he completely misunderstood the doctrines of Grace, I believe that he was a passionate man of God who had sincere love for Jesus. I would say that asserting Calvinism is not necessary for salvation by any means, but I don’t think God’s sovereignty is somehow a secondary issue either.
Just wrote a short blog post on the For Calvinism/Against Calvinism books that are coming out, and how Mike Horton addresses how Christians ought to treat one another. It’s something we all need to be reminded of. We are coheirs of the same inheritance, with the same Lord and Savior.
http://thebereanway.wordpress.com/2011/10/15/for-and-against-calvinism/
My advice is to always believe academics/pastors/theologians over random people on the internet. This advice will work probably 99% of the time (in conversations about anything, not just Calvinism). Every once in a while, random internet person will be right instead of the supposed “expert.” I never expect consistency between these two groups but if I see it, I’m pleasantly surprised.
The fact that you only seem to see this as a problem for Calvinism is odd and says more about you than Calvinism.
Never said it’s only a problem for Calvinists actually.
Just that this disconnect between a scholarly expression that’s thoughtful and open to diologe, and a popular level expression which too often tends towards hostile rhetoric and sectarianism, seems a particular issue for Calvinism these days. Not always, and not for everyone, but an issue nonetheless.